Podcasts
21 February 2024
IoT Leaders with Vijayakrishnan Nagarajan, Software Engineering Manager and Leader at Amazon Key for Business and Nick Earle, CEO of Eseye
When you’re delivering billions of packages a year and you want to make sure they arrive on time, device connectivity and availability are mission-critical.
To this end, Amazon is on a mission to ensure that none of its customers is ever missing a package or parcel — or awaiting a late one. Introducing Amazon Key for Business: enabling drivers to easily access multi-unit buildings and gated communities to deliver Amazon orders.
The 41st episode of the IoT Leaders Podcast features Amazon Key for Business software engineering manager and leader Vijayakrishnan Nagarajan.
The show explores:
Tune in to hear how Amazon Key’s partnership with Eseye led to improved device availability and how Amazon continues its quest for even more growth.
Join us on the IoT Leaders Podcast and share your stories about IoT, digital transformation and innovation with host, Nick Earle.
Contact usIntro:
You are listening to IoT Leaders, a podcast from Eseye that shares real IoT stories from the field about digital transformation swings and misses, lessons learned, and innovation strategies that work. In each episode, you’ll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how IoT is changing the world for the better. Let IoT Leaders be your guide to IoT, digital transformation, and innovation. Let’s get into the show.
Nick Earle:
Hi, this is Nick Earle, CEO of Eseye, and this is the latest episode of IoT Leaders. I have to say that this is one that I’ve wanted for a long time because it’s not only with the world’s biggest company, Amazon, but it is around the subject of probably the most ambitious project certainly I’ve ever come across in the IoT sphere. And I would be very surprised if there is anything more ambitious than this. And it’s not an idea, it’s being implemented.
And what we’re talking about in this episode is the ability to improve first-time delivery of packages to customers through Amazon. And specifically, that project is called Amazon Key for Business. We’ve been very lucky to get approval to talk to the manager of that project, Vijay Nagarajan.
And Vijay is based in California, but in the podcast, you’ll hear him talk about their ambitions to basically automate the entry system, particularly for multi-tenanted communities, for the Amazon driver to improve that first-time delivery in a secure way. But also, to then roll the project out globally and further to then in effect franchise it, my word’s not theirs, franchise that capability to every other delivery company out there. In other words, to create a global standard for door entry to delivery of packages and parcels. And if you know of a project that’s more ambitious than that in the IoT field, then please let me know.
We go through all of this; you’ll hear about Vijay and how quickly he accepted this job when he was offered it. And he also does a good job of talking about the technical challenges that the project has and how Amazon constantly pushes Eseye to improve and improve the data so that they can improve their operational metrics. And they really are operational metric monsters in my view. They are constantly analyzing the fractions of a percentage improvement to improve and he talks about that, how that is the relentless focus to get better and better all the time.
So, it’s also a podcast about how Amazon works internally and I know that they apply that focus to all projects. We do several IoT projects for Amazon, this is one of them, but that is the way Amazon works. And if you’ve read any of the books around Jeff Bezos and his philosophy, you’ll know that they’re good at that.
So enough from me, let me hand over now to my pod with Vijay Nagarajan, who’s the manager of the Amazon Key for Business project. Here it is.
Hello Vijay, and welcome to the IoT Leaders podcast.
Vijay Nagarajan:
Fantastic. Happy to be here.
Nick Earle:
Happy to have you here. Thanks a lot.
I’ve been looking forward to this one for a long time and it’s our 41st podcast. But one of the things that’s been a constant theme of the previous 40 has always been to really focus on the use case and the business value of the use case, and how IoT can make a real contribution to society, to a company’s productivity, to customers’ user experience. And this one, it doesn’t just tick the boxes and all of that, it knocks it out of the park.
I was doing a little bit of Googling before we came on and I looked at some of the official Amazon information and the numbers are just astounding. And in case any of our leaders don’t know, Amazon at the half-year point, last year, and this is just in the US, delivered 1.8 billion packages at the half year. And actually, that was up four times in 2019. The numbers here are off the scale, and that’s what we’re going to talk about in this IoT Leaders podcast with Vijay Nagarajan, who is responsible for large parts of the project from a technical perspective within Amazon.
So, Vijay, let’s dive in. Enough from me. Why don’t we first of all start off with you, and maybe you could just give a little bit about your background and perhaps how you ended up in this position at Amazon?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Thanks, Nick. Happy to be here. First of all, I’m Vijay and I manage the core infrastructure team for Amazon Key, which includes devices and also the firmware that we have.
So, I grew up in India and since my childhood I always wanted to be in the computer field, playing games and all those things. And then I pursued that career, I did my undergrad in India, majoring in computer science, and then I moved to the US to do my master’s. Again, my major was in computer science and my thesis was on computer network security. After graduation, I found a job in the San Francisco Bay Area, that is where I am today. I started as a FreeBSD kernel and layer two networking engineers at Juniper Networks. This led me to another company called Riverbed where I was working on Linux kernel, contributing to some TCP-IP optimization. And finally, I moved to Oracle.
At Oracle, I was doing storage and networking layers. And yeah, I worked on a couple of products there. I was into research as well. And in 2020 I came to know about Amazon Key. It was a two-minute pitch from my current director.
Nick Earle:
A two-minute pitch?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Yeah, two-minute pitch. And I was sold on the idea and I was convinced that this is going to be huge in terms of scale. And this is a common problem that everyone has, missing a package or not getting a package in time. And the whole vision of Amazon Key was to solve some of that.
And yeah, I wanted to be part of that journey, so I joined Amazon Key in 2020. It’s been an amazing journey, a lot of learning through all the IoT things that we do. More than the journey part to me, I thought I could make some difference in this specific area of delivery, at the last mile delivery, and it improves the customer experience by a huge margin.
Nick Earle:
And as I said at the beginning, it’s something we can all identify with. Not only, there’s a clear productivity gain from Amazon delivering a higher percentage of parcels the first time, as opposed to taking them away and trying to deliver again. And we’ll unpack the reasons why you can’t deliver a parcel and how the technology solution works as we get further into this. But also, yes, and as we said at the beginning, one of the things about the IoT use cases is often they have very strong on a technical perspective, or they’re very clear in the user benefit perspective, or they deliver a productivity gain on a business process. But actually, this one is clearly all three.
And in particular, from the people listening to this podcast’s perspective, we will all instantly recognize and connect with that problem that when the Amazon parcel doesn’t arrive, it’s an inconvenience. And the whole value proposition of Prime is that it arrives quickly and you expect it to arrive. And when it does arrive, you feel more satisfied and you’re more likely to order. And so it is a great use case that if you could solve this problem, it’s clearly a very difficult problem to solve if you can solve this problem, the benefits all round on all three business productivity, customer satisfaction, cost saving, brand image, everything is huge.
Now, you mentioned that you joined Amazon in around I think 2020 you said. I know we’ve been working with Amazon as Eseye prior to that, and actually have been involved in programs such as the Locker program as well since then. Later on in the podcast, we’ll get into some of the technical benefits. But before we do, because of your knowledge, and I love the two-minute pitch idea, so you’re very technical, you’re very modest, but I’m getting a feeling that you’re quite impulsive as well, which I love.
So, let’s talk about Key for Business as a project. Because you used the word key, it’s interesting, you were the key. And actually, that’s because I think there are two key projects, aren’t they? So maybe you could break that down for the listeners.
Vijay Nagarajan:
Sure. Yeah. So Amazon Key is made of two different verticals. One is our in-garage delivery business, which we call Key for Consumers. And then the other one is Key for Business. With the in-garage delivery, it’s very straightforward. It’s a benefit that we give for Prime members who has smart garages. During the checkout, they can opt-in to get the package delivered inside their garage. And this makes sure that the packages have securely delivered and then the customer doesn’t have to worry about missing a package. Yeah, so that is one part.
The Key for Business, we work with multi-tenant gated communities where we install a smart device, a cloud-connected smart device, and we give access to the Amazon delivery driver. And when we do the installation, we work with the property manager or the property owner, get their permission, and then they sign up and all of this happens in the background. And then ultimately, we have this device which can give short access for Amazon delivery drivers to open the gate, deliver the package, and leave.
Nick Earle:
So, to really explain that a multi-tenanted door, so it could be a door on a condominium unit, as you’d say in the US, a block of apartments, flats as we would say over here. And of course, as we all know, there is a door and you have to get through that door with a buzzer or a pass if you’re a resident. And then there’s often a set of lockers or boxes where you essentially post the parcels. So you’re talking about that first one. The driver turns up, the driver has got a whole bunch of parcels, they need to deliver them, but actually, they presumably press a button to get to … Without this, I guess they would press a button to ring a buzzer to get the resident to buzz them in. And actually, if the residents are not in, they can’t get in.
And that I think you’re saying is a major contributor to not achieving first-time delivery success. And it’s very hard for people to solve that problem just hoping that people were in. And you don’t want to press other people’s buzzers so you can get to deliver them. So, there’s a security issue. So, if I got that broadly correct, that’s the way without this solution it would work?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Yes. I’m glad you brought that up. So, it depends on, it’s not just one gate, sometimes there are communities where they have a separate gate for the mail room where they wanted to deliver the package. Sometimes there are building-level gates in a bigger community which are even more secure. So based on the use case, we assess where this installation needs to happen and then go ahead with that.
Nick Earle:
So essentially the device is, I’m going to get onto the device, but the device is embedded within the electronics of the entry system in a gate or a door.
And so, another way of looking at this project, we talked about all the other benefits, but there’s also the ambition, the sheer ambition of it. Essentially, I would say as an outsider, another way of talking about your project is that you are trying to embed a capability in as many gates and doors as possible globally.
Vijay Nagarajan:
That is correct, yeah. The cloud-connected device can seamlessly integrate with different access control systems, buzzers, keypads, call boxes, and then that helps us roll this out at scale.
Nick Earle:
Wow. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about the go-to-market model because I think you said earlier the people that you sell to are often the people who are either managing the unit, let’s call it a unit for the moment, a multi-tenant unit, they’re managing the unit or they are new builds, they’re building the unit, so you want them to build this in the first place. Is that correct?
Vijay Nagarajan:
No. Any current communities with the gate, we work with the property managers. We either work with the property managers or the property manager reaches out to us asking us to basically have the Amazon Key installed in their community. Once that piece is done, we go ahead and do the installation for them. We have technicians who are approved, who have a good amount of knowledge in this area with an access control system. And yeah, that’s how we go to the market.
Nick Earle:
And when I talk about Key for Business, or KFB as we know it inside Eseye, certainly to European customers, people I meet, they often haven’t heard of it because obviously it started in the US, and I know Amazon rightly keeps the numbers under wraps. But certainly, I can say that there are a lot of these units out there, let me just put it, in the US. So, this is being deployed, being deployed globally, and you’re already in a lot of countries, I think. Can you mention any of the countries? Because you really started in the US, as always with the project, scale, but then also scale globally at the same time. So, can you mention any of the countries that you’re now scaling into?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Oh, we are available in eight different countries in three different continents. We operate in the US, Canada, and then a few countries in Europe and then Japan.
Nick Earle:
And how do you solve the problem? People will be thinking, “Okay, hold on a second. I don’t just get parcels from Amazon. I’ve got FedEx delivers me stuff, UPS delivers me stuff, and my local courier delivers me stuff. “So it sounds okay, that the Amazon guy can get through the door, but what about the other guys? Because if you’re going for the universal door opener, my phrase, not yours. It has to be an open system available to everybody to be truly ubiquitous. How do you go about solving that problem?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Yeah, so the original vision was to actually make it work for Amazon at scale. And then we do have third-party integration available. The property manager can give permission for third-party providers to integrate with Amazon Key. And we work with them, we have some OTAS they can integrate, and then that’s how they can go ahead and use the Amazon Key technology that we have.
Nick Earle:
So, if I’m FedEx, the property owner could give me as FedEx, permission for my drivers to use this system? They don’t have to have a separate piece, we’ll get onto the device, as I said. They don’t have to have a separate piece of hardware in the FedEx truck. Can they do it through a phone, a cell phone? Is it a software solution for them?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Yes, that is correct. Like I said, the device connects to our backend and typically anyone can use their phone app, go through the typical authentication authorization, and then they will be able to see that this property is enabled with Amazon Key and they should be able to open the gate using a press of button from the app.
Nick Earle:
So, we talked about the problem, we talked about the scale, and we’ve talked about the go-to-market model. And we talked about the go-to-market model and how other people, other delivery companies can be granted access by their phones to have the same capabilities. So it all sounds great. But certainly, we know, and as I say, we’ve been working with Amazon for four years, we know it isn’t easy because the one thing that we haven’t said is that, from an IoT connectivity if we drill down, point of view. You don’t want different systems in different countries. You want a ubiquitous global connectivity solution that you can scale anywhere. And that is a challenge. So maybe we can talk about that.
I know the project started, the selection of Eseye as the device partner, if you like, in this area started before you joined, but what sort of challenges, can you comment on what sort of challenges when Amazon, either before or after you joined on an ongoing basis, what sort of IoT challenges does that throw up? Because that breadth of project ambition that we’ve talked about is probably the broadest that we’ve ever seen. It must throw up a lot of challenges for you in terms of getting the device to work from an IoT perspective.
Vijay Nagarajan:
Yeah, great question. So before I could answer that question, so let’s talk about a cloud-connected device which helps in delivery. So what happens if the device is not connected? So, it’s going to cost some amount of frustration to the Amazon delivery driver, and then they’re going to go back to their old way of doing stuff where they’re going to call residents, or they’re going to call the property managers. And these property managers or residents, they have to constantly buzz some delivery driver, or as a resident, you have to be at home to actually pick up the call and then get the package. And even for the driver, the efficiency goes down when some of these technologies don’t work or don’t exist.
So our major pain point at scale was the connectivity. Specifically, our device is a cellular-connected device, and each and every region, or even within US, each and every state is different on how the carriers operate and there are a bunch of carriers, and who’s better in one area might not be good in other area.
So, these were our constant challenges and periodically we saw that devices would drop connectivity. There were a lot of reasons and be partnered with Eseye to go through that entire flow and understand what are some improvements that we can do to the device. And over a period of time, we were able to make our device highly available.
That was one of my main charters for my team, is to make sure that the device availability gets increased year over year. And we are fairly good, but still a lot of room to keep going.
Nick Earle:
Working with Amazon this time, I always smile when Amazon say, “We’re fairly good, but we’ve got room to improve.” To which we would say, “You are really good and we know that you’re going to push us more and more to get even better.”
But yeah, if I go back to what you said, there’s a couple of things that regular listeners to this podcast will have heard, which is the idea that, several things. One is traditional, shall I say, connectivity has gaps and it’s not, we talked a lot previously, you may get very high percentage by head of population, but we’re not talking about a head of population metric here. We’re talking about a location metric. And as you say, even within the US there are certain, each network has areas where they’re good and areas where they’re not so good and areas where there’s nothing. And so it’s very fragmented.
Secondly, you talked about the device has to be optimized. And again, for clarity, that’s the firmware, isn’t it? The firmware in the device and the interaction between the firmware and the modem. What happens if there’s a restart? The ability to switch, rotate IMSI, all of that area. That’s the optimization that you’re talking about, isn’t it on that side.
Vijay Nagarajan:
That is correct. Yeah. So, specifically how quickly can you recover if there is a cellular drop or with Eseye, how does the IMSI rotation work and what are the best-optimized carriers in this specific region?
We do get a lot of telemetry, so we have some fair bit of information with respect to that. But working with Eseye, we learned a lot more on how we can optimize to start with. So, the best practices on how to configure a modem for better connectivity, it’s there on your website. So, some of these helped us to not dig into much detail or do our own research, but just take it as a starting point, which accelerated in some of the connectivity improvements that we can do in the field. And then-
Go on.
Nick Earle:
No, I was going to say, I didn’t mean to cut you off, but I was just going to link to a third thing that you said even though you may have got it right. Let’s say you got it right 18 months ago, the point is that networks change, coverage changes, new locations are added, and there are always new capabilities, new features. So, the point is it’s not an event, it’s a journey. It’s a journey. Some networks, roaming agreements get broken all the time between networks, and people don’t see it, but it happens all the time due to commercial disputes. And so this is a constant thing. It’s from our point of view, it’s a managed service to constantly optimize that.
So you not only maintain it but as you said, improve it over time because clearly, the goal is 100%. And the closer you get to it, the harder it’s technically and you’re trying to do it globally. So, I was fascinated by what you said about the fact that making it better every year, making it better, and really drilling down on the data. The deep network-level data that I know you guys really look at so that you can continue to optimize the service. It’s a very intensive device-focused project.
Vijay Nagarajan:
That is true. Actually, you wouldn’t believe, as early as yesterday, we were on call with Eseye asking about certain agreements between certain carriers. Why is our device not connecting to this specific carrier? It takes more than three minutes to recover and how can we help.
So yeah, like you mentioned, all these things keep changing, which means that we have to focus every single day on what is happening with our devices in the field. And with operating at scale in different countries, there are so many things that we need to track and we have a great team who help us get the right data, and then helping us focus on the right problems that we need to solve. And this is constant work, like you’ve mentioned, it’s a journey and not a one-point fix, and then the availability keeps going on.
Nick Earle:
Yeah, I didn’t know you were on with our team yesterday when you said that. But I’m not surprised because network roaming agreements change constantly and they’re invisible to the user. These things aren’t publicized, but they not only happen, but actually, rates go up. So often they’re very short notice because we monitor the world’s networks as part of our managed service. And it can be, for people listening, you can get a one-hour notice, at best you’ll get a one-day notice, and then they’ll always offer you an alternative. But the alternative could be 10 times the cost, which is not solving the problem.
It’s because often they’ve had a financial dispute, roaming quotas, which you can’t see but they exist. The whole world’s roaming infrastructure is based on a quota system. And those quotas get exceeded and suddenly the CFO says, “No, we’re going to put those guys on the naughty step,” as we call it. And suddenly you don’t want any of that to affect you because you’ve got to deliver a service. And so that’s why it’s really important to work very closely.
We cover that, by the way, if people are really interested in that, and you haven’t listened to the previous podcast I did, podcast number 40 is with our founders, Paul and Ian, who talked in depth about why you have to be able to solve that problem and how you solve that problem. Because it is something which really affects people when they get a mission-critical application like this.
So, if I just do a little summary here before I just move into the next section. You’ve got a very exciting project and I can see why you jumped at it. You’ve also got global ambitions. You’re in, I think you said eight countries, but even within the US, I know that you’ve still got a lot of market share to go after in the US. So this is clearly going to keep on growing.
And then there’s the issue of providing software access to all of the world’s, and we call it parcel deliverers, hope I’m not using the wrong phrase, to make it agnostic. Not just operator connectivity agnostic, courier if you like, courier agnostic, delivery company agnostic. And so it is a really fascinating IoT project.
So, that leads me into the final section really, which is: to the extent you could comment, if I said it was two or three years from now and we were talking, and it would be great to do an update, by the way, in two- or three-years time. But in two- or three years time, where do you see the project going? Is it more of the same operational discipline, operational focus, and relentless focus on the percentage connectivity? Is it just relentless focus and scale? Or are there other possible goals for the project?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Yeah, all of what you mentioned. So, they looking into expanding to other countries that is number one. Like I said, we are operational in eight and we would like to expand in that area. Operational excellence is something to the heart of any Amazonians, so we wanted to keep improving the availability and figure out other ways that we can manage. There were a lot of manual works that we have done in the past. So, our idea is to automate all of that for us so that things work seamlessly where we don’t have to manually monitor some network and then apply some patches or something. So we are trying to go in that direction in terms of operation.
Nick Earle:
Operational efficiency and automation, which require deep knowledge of lower-level data and as much data as quickly as possible to get from the edge into the center. So I know there’s a lot more work to do with this to optimize this solution.
So, this has been really fascinating and I’m sure that the listeners have been very interested to hear this. As I said at the beginning, I think you are running one of the most exciting IoT projects certainly we’ve come across, in which case, it leads me to my last question, which is: what advice would you give that you’re running this project within, let’s face it, the world’s largest company, it’s core to Amazon’s service to consumers. And so for people who are perhaps starting out on a project and wanting to learn from your experience, what advice would you give people when they’re considering an IoT project in terms of the lessons you’ve learned on how to optimize the chances of success?
Vijay Nagarajan:
Sure, yeah. In today’s world, most of the companies go from 0 to 100, to 200 in no time. So, in order for a company to scale in that fashion, especially in the IoT area, one of the key things is having an OTA capability or an OTA infrastructure. In our case, we do have all of that baked in. When we started this project, however-
Nick Earle:
So you mean, excuse me to cut across you. So OTA, in other words, over the air, something that is not dependent on human touch and a human having to get involved because by its very nature. It’ll scale for a small number of devices, but it won’t scale. And that operational efficiency point that you made, you can never drive out operational efficiency from a human being, inefficiency from a human being. So the OTA capability, which is switching the IMSI, changing the settings, driving it from the center out to the edge, and even getting information from the device back to the center, and the ability to then control everything over the air from the software and the algorithms, the switching rules is critical connectivity. I think that’s what you’re saying, right?
Vijay Nagarajan:
That is correct, including the device firmware and other things that you would need. So having this infrastructure is good, but all of this has to be automated if you’re going to operate at scale, like you mentioned, without any human involvement. I push something and then it automatically gets into all the devices. That is one important learning that we had.
And then I would say collect a lot of telemetry, because like I said, every country is different, and every region is different. In order for you to actually understand how that device behavior is, you need to have the telemetry, dive deep, and understand what happens at a device level. Because there will be a common recurring pattern that you can always find which you should be able to solve once what is going on with the device.
And then in terms of operational excellence, we treat every single field problem as a very important problem. Because, for a long time you might not know about certain device behavior, but there will be one thing that catches your eye where you’ll realize, “I know how to solve all of these problems.”
So with respect to that, yeah, every single field issue is super important. We constantly engage with Eseye, I don’t know, maybe-
Nick Earle:
I know.
Vijay Nagarajan:
… we have a ticket or two every week to actually look into the network traces and then see why certain devices are reconnecting, or what is going on in that area. And we also identify patterns at the zip code level or the area level or the city level and then understand why these devices behave this way compared to these devices. And how can we have a solution for that set of devices? So those are also the three learnings that we have had thus far.
Nick Earle:
And actually, if I can finish by giving you some feedback, you as in Amazon, but some feedback, you absolutely do those things. We’re on the receiving end of it. We do the weekly call, but more importantly, the depth at which you pour over the data to look for those patterns, and then when you find them the way you drill down on them is quite something. It certainly keeps us on our toes. And it just shows the discipline that is needed to drive systematic operational improvement into complex global projects.
And it’s a world away from a vendor relationship where you buy something from a partner. And you by the way, I’m sure you apply this to everyone you deal with, we’re just talking about IoT now, but it’s a world away from being just a vendor relationship. “Oh, that’s done, it’s procurement. We’ve got a contract, off we go.” This is a very strategic relationship with a huge amount of data sharing. I know you’re constantly asking us for improvements so that we can actually give you more data, and more APIs. So that you can actually collect this data and comb it for the patterns to search out that small percentage of operational improvement that you’re so relentless on.
And for those of you, any of you listening to this podcast, if you’ve dealt with Amazon, you will know exactly that they do this in every project. It’s part of their DNA, it’s part of their methodology, and it’s clearly one of the reasons why they are so successful.
So, Vijay, I’m going to leave it here. I think it’s been really fascinating. One of the takeaways I’m getting is that you’re at the beginning of, as the Americans would say, having lived in the US, I think you’re at the bottom of the first. In other words, you’re in the first innings because you’ve got so many more countries, you’ve got so many more opportunities within one country, and then there’s so many other partners to create the agnostic ecosystem. And then there are so many more operational improvements that you could drive.
So I do believe that this is in the very early days of a project, which is mind-blowing to wrap your mind around just the scope and the possibilities. And again, it is just delivering massive customer value to your customers, which is I know your prime driver, if you pardon the pun.
So thanks, Vijay. Thank you very much for being my 41st guest on IoT Leaders. The Amazon experience, so to speak, is one that I’ve been after for a long time, and I’m really glad to you and Amazon for agreeing to do this. I know you don’t do this often, so I think it’s a reflection of our deep partnership on several projects, but this one in particular. It’s a reflection of our partnership that you agreed to do this. So I want to just once again say thank you very much. Thanks for being on the IoT Leaders podcast.
Vijay Nagarajan:
Thanks for having me, Nick.
Outro:
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